Douglas Murray On Israel And Deportations

Douglas is a writer and commentator. He’s an associate editor at The Spectator and a columnist for both the New York Post and The Sun, as well as a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. His books include The Madness of Crowds and The War on the West, which we discussed on the Dishcast three years ago. His new book is On Democracies and Death Cults: Israel and the Future of Civilization. We had a lively, sometimes contentious session — first on Trump, then on Israel’s tactics in Gaza.

This episode and a forthcoming one with Francis Collins were challenges. How to push back against someone who is your guest? I never wanted the Dishcast to be an interrogation, an Andrew Neil-style interview. But I also wanted it to air debate, so I try to play devil’s advocate when appropriate. I’m sure you’ll let me know how I’m doing after this one.

For two clips of our convo — on Palestinians “endlessly rejecting peace,” and debating the Khalil case — pop over to our YouTube page.

Other topics: the pros and cons of Trump 2.0 for Douglas; his time on the frontlines in Ukraine; the “horrifying” WH meeting with Zelensky; mineral reparations; North Korean conscripts; aggressing Greenland; Blame Canada; the Signal chat; Vance’s disdain for Europe; the Houthis; MAGA isolationists; targeting law firms; race and sex discrimination under Biden; Trump defunding the Ivies; anti-Semitism on campus; the Columbia protests and criminality; the Alien Enemies Act and the 1952 law; the Ozturk case; the horrors of 10/7; Hezbollah’s aborted invasion; the bombing of Gaza; human shields; dead children; hostages like Edan Alexander; Gazan protests against Hamas; the Israeli dentist who saved Sinwar’s life; 9/11 and religious extremism; the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza; Ben-Gurion; Zionism; pogroms in the wake of 1948; audio clips of Hitchens and Bill Burr; the view that only Jews can protect Jews; Rushdie; the hearts and minds of Gazans; John Spencer; just war theory; Trump’s Mar-a-Gaza; the West Bank settlements; ethnic cleansing; Smotrich; and the fate of a two-state solution after 10/7.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Claire Lehmann on the success of Quillette, Evan Wolfson on the history of marriage equality, Francis Collins on faith and science and Covid, Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee on Covid’s political fallout, and Paul Elie on his book The Last Supper: Art, Faith, Sex, and Controversy in the 1980s. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

On last week’s episode with Nick Denton, here’s a “longtime Dish subscriber (paid, of course), but it’s the first time I’m reaching out”:

Your chat with Denton was riveting and challenging. I think his point about American political paralysis blinding us to an ascendant China is especially valid.

Nick responds:

Carl Sagan did have that foreboding — of such distractions that a cataclysm could unfold without the populace even noticing. The woke wars have occupied our most serious intellectuals, and before that the war on terror was a few trillion dollars down the drain — and most expensive of all, the attention devoted to an economically marginal part of the world. There is a wonderful clip of LKY shaking his head in irritation as Charlie Rose brings up American policy in Afghanistan, again. “It is a distraction,” he says. The question is just dumb.

From another listener:

What an incredible episode!

Nick asks: without Silicon Valley and Hollywood, what does the US have other than natural resources? Here’s the full quote:

Russia is a toxic country. It’s as toxic as any of these natural-resources countries. The reason why probably Trump identifies with it, is because America is rapidly on the track to becoming a kind of revisionist, natural-resource, would-be-a-colony if it didn’t have nukes. So of course they have a commonality of interest. Take away Silicon Valley, take away Hollywood. What do you have?

I’d like to bring attention to the public universities across the Midwest that are among the best in science and engineering. That’s what attracts top foreign students to the country and feeds Silicon Valley. (I went to school with Levchin — the technical brain behind the “PayPal mafia” — and I only missed Andreessen by one year.) Those institutions predate Silicon Valley, and I sincerely hope they will outlast Silicon Valley.

Nick responds:

Yes, there is an American heartland that could emerge from this — maybe Urbana can be the capital. Tom Wolfe’s story of the founding of Silicon Valley explores Robert Noyce’s Midwestern beginnings. The Valley could still return to that Anglo-German tradition.

Another listener:

Your conversation with Nick Denton on China concerned a topic that is vastly important but currently underreported because of Trump’s various outrageous orders and statements. I’m glad you asked Denton several times about his apparent indifference about China’s totalitarianism and lack of individual rights. His responses ranged from evasive to specious. It’s a chilling reminder that too many tech-obsessed people seem not to care much about democracy.

Nick responds:

You’re right. I didn’t want to get bogged down in a discussion of democratic values. Plenty of people for that; I’m simply evaluating quality of governance and economic growth.

That same listener continues:

As for the world entering a Chinese era, Denton never addressed China’s greatest long-term problem: population collapse. Their population has dropped in absolute numbers for three years running, and their replacement rate is dropping below 1.0. Demographic researchers note that in areas where birth rates can be ascertained independently, China inflates their figures. So their population decline may have started dropping several years earlier than reported, and their replacement rate may be dropping below 0.9.

The Chinese government is aware of the looming catastrophe. They’ve already announced that care for the elderly will fall on families and local soup kitchens rather than the national government. By the end of this century, China stands to lose more than half of their population — a loss of over 700 million people. And the people remaining will be disproportionately old. Marriage rates in China are collapsing as we speak.

How does Denton explain how China will maintain its “supremacy” when it becomes the world’s largest nursing home? America’s replacement rate is nowhere near as bad — about 1.6 — and legal immigration can keep us stable. The silence of pro-China enthusiasts like Denton on this unavoidable issue is deafening.

Nick again:

Yeah, not even LKY could solve the demographic crisis. Arguably, the robot revolution makes the home-care crunch less acute. But only if you have the engineers to design the robots.

Another looks to the EV industry:

Nick Denton points to BYD overtaking Tesla and the persistent claim that China is way ahead of the US and all their manufacturers. Nonsense. God help me, Andrew, I’ve driven a year-old BYD and it’s dreadful. Of course Tesla isn’t selling as well — because they cost 4x the equivalent of a BYD vehicle. Plus, BYD has a huge hybrid-engine division, which Tesla prides itself on NOT having. Who isn’t going to choose the cheaper car?

China constantly claims they’re always ahead and always doing better than the US. We never see those gains. For example, BYD’s five-minute full-battery-charge claim hasn’t been proven in the real world, and it’s likely “creatively interpreted” to drive up the stock price. Why do that? Because BYD is tens of billions of dollars in debt.

China has better engineering and design? No, they’re better IP thieves and have better production capacity. DeepSeek stole code from ChatGPT. BYD copied Tesla.

I agree with how dangerous China is. No one is in danger from a swimmer, but a drowning man will grab at anything he can on the way down.

Nick responds:

I didn’t say that China was dangerous, merely that it would win this industrial race. What started as copying, has turned of necessity into innovation. And it’s unwise to lecture China about empty claims — when they’re up against Trump and Musk, two showmen of the highest order.

Better to examine the clips for glitches, wait for validated racetrack speeds, and make like-for-like comparisons, as you would any two products. I’m a fan of BYD’s economics rather than its models. But the Xiaomi SU7 is an example of digital integration, manufacturing automation, and excellent design coming together.

Another turns to urban planning:

Many of Denton’s pronouncements I agreed with or found interesting, but there is no modesty, no hesitancy, no self-doubt or questioning in ANY of it. There are so many things I could comment on that picking just a few is very hard, but I will try.