Jason is a columnist at the Washington Post who writes about law, politics, and foreign policy. He used to be an editorial writer and assistant editorial features editor for the Wall Street Journal, and before that he was a staff writer and associate editor at The American Interest.
An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on whether SCOTUS has surrendered to Trump, and the failures of his own lawfare — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: growing up in liberal Palo Alto; raised by a doctor and a physics prof at Stanford; Fukuyama a formative prof and Walter Russell Mead a formative boss; conservatives mags that fell apart under Trump; the GOP primaries in 2016; Hillary’s denialism after her terrible run; Russiagate; Watergate; the politicization of DOJ; Trump suing the IRS; Comey and obstruction of justice; how Alvin Bragg and Jack Smith helped Trump; the January 6 pardons; the ICE paramilitary; the latest Epstein document dump; the power network around him, including “populist” Bannon; the SCOTUS immunity ruling; the delayed tariff ruling; Trump’s bullshit “national emergencies” and the 1977 law; CECOT; Abrego Garcia and Ozturk; Biden and student loans; Jerome Powell and Lisa Cook; Gabbard in Fulton County; Thom Tillis vs Trump; the US vs NATO; Ukraine and Putin; Trump soft on China; bombing Iran and Nigeria; invading Venezuela; crypto corruption and the UAE chips deal; Jimmy Kimmel and the FCC; Ed Martin out; and Trump’s success at bullying institutions.
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Zaid Jilani on the Dems, Derek Thompson on abundance, Matt Goodwin on the UK political earthquake, Kathryn Paige Harden on the genetics of vice, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
From a despondent fan of last week’s pod with Jon Rauch:
What a great, and depressing conversation.
We’ve known all along that this Congress won’t impeach and remove Trump, no matter what he does. I’ve been hoping that I’ll wake up one morning and learn that he has died, but as you and Jon discussed, the squalor is so deep — with Vance and well beyond — that things wouldn’t improve much. It’s looking increasingly possible that there will never again be free and fair elections, as Trump calls on his minions to “nationalize” elections. It seems that we are fucked — and nothing is going to change much for three years, if ever.
I’m not that gloomy. I actually think that Trump is a uniquely hideous influence on our political culture and his disappearance from the scene would instantly help everything. From a listener in Minneapolis:
I don’t dispute anything that was said in the Rauch episode. I have been concerned about the potential of authoritarian and fascist rule since becoming an adult, and I agree that this cruel administration has taken a fascistic turn.
I have been a Minnesotan my whole life, and deeply imbued with the values of the DFL and the legacy of New Dealers like Humphrey and Mondale, as well as Wellstone. I supported Walz and voted for him twice, as well as in the primary in 2018. I have long advocated for Mayor Frey as a sensible choice in the face of the defund-the-police and DSA-aligned city council members. I am a liberal.
So yes, let’s call the current Trump era Fascist — but let’s also talk about what is happening with the progressive, illiberal left. Can we call them Communists? Bill Maher does, when he describes Mamdani and the DSA ilk that dominates the discourse.
I’m on the ground here in south Minneapolis, surrounded by the wine/soccer moms joining rapid-response Signal groups that are deeply influenced by DSA, PSLA, and other revolutionary groups. This is what therapists call a “both/and situation.” Trump and the GOP and their ICE goons are operating beyond the pale of acceptable behavior, but the manic ideological left has found a new fuel source. Rumors swirl every day: it’s an “occupation”, and there are “abductions” (these are unquestioned terms at this point). Some of the right-wing observers have a bit of a point about the “insurgency”. Physical confrontation is the goal, and concepts like “De-Arresting” as examples of “mini-intifadas” are widely shared via Instagram/Tiktok, and Signal.
I attempted to be reasonable and have rational conversations about some of the activists’ tactics putting people at risk and even death, and I was met with questions about my loyalty and “Do you support this?” or “Are you a Trump supporter?” I realized the only safe option is to nod and smile, and agree with how horrible ICEs tactics are (and they are).
But I can also see this month of January 2026 as being a true Rupture and Repair moment that will solidify wokeness. I fear that liberalism will die, because either you are on the side of the Fascists, or on the side of the Resistance. Much like the summer of 2020 and Floyd, this is an opportunity for truly revolutionary and illiberal forces to entrench in our institutions.
The political realignment is fascinating. Standing in my kitchen three days after Renee Good’s killing (I live five blocks from where that occurred), I listened to an entirely female group of friends and family (all millennial, professional, white, woke women) talk about forming militias. Now they love the 2nd Amendment and states rights! And these advocates of woke cancel culture are now champions of the First Amendment.
“Great!” I say, but I am concerned there will never be any adjustments or reflection on the illiberal nature of that recent era. Truly stunning. There is no rational conversation taking place, no attempt at viewing the bigger picture of how we lost in 2024, and no real ideas being forth about what is to be done — other than RESIST.
I agree. We really haven’t had any skeptical MSM coverage of the “resistance” in Minneapolis, and I don’t doubt your personal testimony. Even my small notes about the attitude of Renee Good was deemed a scandal by readers. But we need to see the whole picture. In the whole picture, I would not have done what Good and Pretti did.
A reader adds to this theme:
I feel like every day I deal with dissenters like yours, who are essentially saying: “You’re either with us or against us. If you don’t support us 100%, you’re against us. We need a vehement, unanimous bloc against Trump and MAGA, and if you’re objecting to anything the left is doing, you’re a chink in that bloc. You’re the reason the anti-Trump movement has failed.”
Why is it that your entirely reasonable response to this bullying never lands? I think that Adam Gopnik is correct that the left hates John Stuart Mill liberals more than they hate the right. I always have the sense that my leftist friends long for me to finally acknowledge, “Yes, you’re right, I’m a Republican, and I support Trump.” Jesse Singal has written about all of the pressure that leftists put on him to “confess” to being on the right.
And these people think that we are the ones who are weakening the anti-Trump movement, when they are actively trying to push us into the Trump camp?
I was glad that you mentioned Renée Good’s smugness and Alex Pretti’s radicalization. One can object fully, entirely, and absolutely to these protesters’ being gunned down and still refrain from venerating them as holy martyrs. Certainly the Trump administration didn’t want us to see what we all saw in the videos, but the left also didn’t want us to see what we all saw in the videos either —and somehow they don’t grasp that that makes them lose credibility.
Another clip from the Rauch pod:
Here’s a dissent:
Your podcast with Jonathan Rauch was perhaps the best you’ve ever done — at least in so far as how deeply it affected me. However, I just can’t square such brilliant minds and brilliant hearts with this: “But Europe is in a terrible place — probably worse, I think — when it comes to the threat of fascism in a culture laid waste by multiculturalism.”
After this podcast of all podcasts, you can’t expect to be able to just tuck that in there and not have someone call you out on it!
