Jon and I go way back to the early days of the marriage movement and before. He’s currently a senior fellow at Brookings and a contributor editor at The Atlantic. He’s written many landmark books, including Kindly Inquisitors, The Constitution of Knowledge (which we discussed on the pod in 2021), and Cross Purposes (which we covered last year). His new essay in The Atlantic, “Yes, It’s Fascism,” is a must-read.
And this episode is, if you don’t mind me saying so, a must-listen. One of the best conversations I’ve yet had on the Dishcast. Jon is always lucid and fair and thereby chilling.
An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the glorification of violence by Trump and his officials, and the cowardice of mainstream conservatives — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: Trump smashing norms; his vile indecency; his early rallies; reveling in war crimes; suing everyone; the “mean tweets” defense; cultural degeneracy in America; the need for party gatekeeping; blood-and-soil nationalism; Plato on tyrants; Stephen Miller’s “iron laws”; the Zelensky meeting and “having no cards”; the assassination attempt on Trump; the reprehensible Randy Fine; ICE using white nationalist anthems to recruit; anonymous masked agents; the Pretti and Good killings; the racial element of ICE roundups; the Somali fraud scandal; the over-politicization of DoJ; the two legal systems under the Nazis; Carl Schmitt; the blanket pardon for all Jan 6-ers; Vance meeting with AfD; Heritage Americans; birthright citizenship; Greenland; Venezuela; Christian nationalism; evangelical loyalty to Trump; his Board of Peace; the vandalism of DOGE; Vought’s evil genius; the East Wing demolition; violent threats against moderate Republicans; the woke playing right into Trump’s hands; and fears that he will manipulate the midterms.
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Zaid Jilani on the Dems, Derek Thompson on abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
From a fan of last week’s pod with Kevin Williamson:
Conservatism has been exposed as the fraud and hypocrisy as it has always been. Bankrupt and soulless. Good riddance.
Another fan of Kevin:
I’ve never read a piece by Kevin Williamson that didn’t include at least one simply delicious sentence. He’s a born satirist, and it’s at the heart of everything he writes. I even prefer him to P.J. O’Rourke.
Here’s a guest rec from “a listener and subscriber to the Dish for several years”:
Please read Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s new essay in The American Mind, “Minnesota’s Post-Assimilation Reality.” I hope you will bring her on the Dishcast to discuss her argument about the growing influence of multiculturalism and anti-assimilationism on our traditional cultural and governing principles. It seems like an important conversation we should care about.
Another rec:
I’ve recently come across Dean Ball and his substack Hyperdimensional. He writes about AI from the perspective of someone who engages a lot with the technology but also has a foot in the humanities world. As someone who works in AI but is also a fan of your writing and receptive to your flavor of conservatism, I find him to be a fascinating writer. I also just discovered he has a forthcoming paper about Michael Oakeshott!
On last week’s column, a reader writes:
As a long-time subscriber, I’m happy to have increased my price voluntary, from $50 to $60 — even though money is tight. (Don’t tell the wife about this, lol!) Your “Abyss” column was what inspired this reply and the subscription increase. Times are getting dark and weird and people are scared. The Dish has the balls — so now I’m putting more skin in the game to cheer the Dish forward!
Balls to the wall! One of my favorite nonsense expressions. Another reader quotes from the column:
How does one even respond to such an obscenity? As a proudly pro-American European by birth, maybe I feel this more acutely. But for this draft-dodging pig to erase the sacrifice of 1,160 men and women from America’s allies in the post-9/11 war on terror is a disgrace. And for what? NATO is all but destroyed for just the momentary, sick pleasure of mockery.
I think I feel it as acutely as you do, and I’m a “native born” American, Trump’s age, and was in the Navy while Trump was dodging the draft. I keep wondering: do the Republicans in Congress like what is going on — the wanton destruction of NATO, masked thugs breaking down doors and the rest — or do they just not care?
Nixon was a wonderful person compared to Trump, but ended up resigning, and would have been impeached and convicted if he hadn’t resigned. Trump probably should have been convicted by the Senate after his first impeachment, and clearly should have been with the second. This Congress will do nothing, even though there are many valid reasons he should be removed.
Then, there is the Trump/McConnell court that won’t do anything now, and a few years ago gave presidents immunity from being held accountable for any crimes they have committed. This country, and the world, are in deep shit, and as you say, 40% of Americans apparently love it. It’s never been a better time to be old.
Another has questions:
Thanks for telling the world what you think. I’ve imagined writing to you for some time now, seeking the advice — or perhaps simply the commiseration — of someone who might understand where I’m coming from. The incisive power of your latest column, “The Abyss,” moved me to finally do it.
I feel a particular affinity for you because of some echoes and parallels in our personal journeys. While I was born in the US, I grew up in West Sussex in the UK. I felt drawn to the US growing up and deeply admired the country, so I came (back) to the US enthusiastically as an adult. I had no greater aspiration as a teenager than to finish up my A Levels and go to college in America, presumably never to look back. I started my undergrad in 2008 — the dawn of the Obama years. It’s hard to imagine a headier and more optimistic time for a young progressive to embark on a new life in an exciting country I loved and felt immensely proud of. I built a life here and absolutely think of myself as American first and foremost. It’s a life and identity I chose — gladly, passionately, optimistically.
But the last decade has tried that optimism. I have a daughter now, and I can’t help but ask myself if this is the best I can do for her. For Americans by choice, when is enough enough?
I wonder how you — someone else who chose this place, who loves this place, but has ties elsewhere — reflect on your patriotism in times like these, and whether you also sometimes ask yourself where the line is? Would you ever leave? Return to the UK? Would that be a betrayal? When is exit — as opposed to voice or loyalty — the appropriate response to what is happening around us?
I will leave only if they deport me. I understand your sense of Obama-Trump whiplash. And I’m deeply depressed by how sanguine many Americans are right now, given the enormity of what is going on. But Europe is in a terrible place — probably worse, I think — when it comes to the threat of fascism in a culture laid waste by multiculturalism. And America is a crazy place that has a hell of a lot of ruin in it. I haven’t given up hope, though Trump truly tests it every day.
Another writes, “Your comparison of Trump to George III hit home for me”:
I sing with a community choir, and last spring our program included the song “You’ll Be Back” from Hamilton, in which the king imagines the rebellious colonies as his beloved and himself as the jilted lover who vows to win them back with the aid of a fully armed battalion. We rehearsed it during the weeks of the first rounds of mass deportations, and as we did, I became convinced that George and Donald were two of a kind.
That led me to write and record new lyrics to the song, under the title “You’ll Be Gone,” with Trump as the new mad king. If you’re interested in taking a listen, it’s on YouTube:
Next up, many dissents. The first:
Get a grip, Andrew! It’s not that everything you write is wrong, but you’re way over your skis with your hyperventilating. And Trump is definitely NOT senile. When you throw out ridiculous accusations, you lose credibility. A number of friends who have read the Weekly Dish for years echo my thoughts. You should read Niall Ferguson in The Free Press: “How Trump Won Davos.” The problem, as Ferguson points out, is that you cannot take Trump both literally and seriously.
I did read that piece. I found it laughable cope, I’m afraid. And I am sick of being told it is somehow sophisticated to look past obvious derangement and depravity. A US president threatened the sovereignty of a NATO country, and the story is that Trump owned Davos! I’m sorry but no.
Another dissenter quotes me:
All of this is devastating enough. More devastating is how Americans are responding. They aren’t. They don’t really care.
I live in the Twin Cities and think this is wrong.
