Kevin spent 15 years as a writer and reporter for National Review, worked as a theater critic at The New Criterion, and had a long career in local newspapers. He’s currently the national correspondent at The Dispatch and a writer in residence at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. He’s the author of many books, including Big White Ghetto: Dead Broke, Stone-Cold Stupid, and High on Rage in the Dank Woolly Wilds of the “Real America.”
An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the arc from the Tea Party to Trump, and now his Greenland travesty — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: growing up in Lubbock with working-class, adoptive parents; playing football for the worst 5A team in Texas and joking with Dubya about it; starting journalism as a teenager; Bill Buckley a big influence; working for newspapers in India; how neoliberalism lifted untold millions out of poverty; the prosperity of the ‘90s; Karl Rove and “deficits don’t matter”; quitting the GOP over Arlen Specter; joining NR in 2008; TARP and bailouts; covering the Tea Party rallies; the Constitution checking human nature; Pat Buchanan; Ross Perot; Rick Santorum; the demonization of Obama; the pathologies of working-class whites; Christian apologists of Trump; mass migration and multiculturalism; masked ICE agents; Trump and celebrity culture; the Nobel hissy fit over Greenland; the tariff insanity; the bond market; Bessent’s propaganda; right-wingers in Europe turning on Trump; Vance and Cruz bending the knee; Jan 6 and Mike Pence; MTG’s conversion; Musk’s accomplishments; Trump defunding science in higher ed; Rahm Emanuel; when Kevin was cancelled by The Atlantic; when both of us were vilified by Jeff Goldberg in a townhall; and taking Matt Stone to Bear Week in Ptown.
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffery Toobin on the pardon power, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, Derek Thompson on the Dems and abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
On last week’s episode with Charlie Sykes:
It was clear from this episode that we understand the malignant psychology of Donald Trump and the danger it has wrought — but I am constantly bewildered over his supporters. What is it about people who refuse to acknowledge the reality of who this man is and support all that he does? How are we to understand their psychology? Are there possible guests for the podcast who could speak to this?
I’m as baffled as you are. Kevin Williamson does his best to answer in this week’s pod. From another fan of last week’s:
It has been way too long since I’ve listened to the Dishcast. I came out of retirement in March 2024 and have been working entirely too much and thinking too little. Your conversation with Charlie Sykes caused me to stop and think about what’s going on in the world in a way I have failed to grasp. You’re right. And I was wrong. Thank you, my dear friend.
Another listener on that pod:
I did not think my depression and pessimism could get any worse.
I harbored a small hope that somewhere there were voices that could break through to those who have bought into the what I call the real Trump Derangement Syndrome — seeing him as a god-like figure who is here to save their money and their souls. But they responded to the killing of Ms. Good by both accepting the lies and vilifying her for being who she was, and they do not see the invasion of the streets by mercenaries who have adopted the tactics of fascists as something to be fearful of.
However, both you and Sykes say that even you have made no headway into that segment of the population that cannot see what is in front of their eyes, and can’t hear the echoes — not only of the past, but of the Putins, the Kims, the Ayatollahs and the other dictators of today.
I can only imagine what comes next.
Indeed. I suspect it gets much worse quite swiftly. Another writes, “Great pod with Charlie Sykes”:
I just wanted to add a comment about how this episode (along with several recent ones) has made me feel. I’m noticing something strange happening in my politics over the last year of the administration. As my disgust with Trump and Vance grows to a fever pitch, I simultaneously notice that my preferences at the policy level are growing more conservative.
I guess one way to explain this is that Trump’s platform is not conservative whatsoever. But maybe this is something you’ve heard from others and could write about: that in conjunction with the rise of the Obama-to-Trump “burn it all down” voter, there has been a migration of conservatives who by virtue of their deepening conservatism are feeling obligated to vote for Democrats until this menace finally disappears.
In any case, thank you for staying committed to being you in this fragile moment. Your columns and the Dishcast are a weekly treat for me.
Yes and yes. This era is a great argument for the virtues of a real conservatism: prudence, epistemological modesty, constitutional fidelity, and pragmatic but real reform. Trump Republicanism is the nemesis of conservative: reckless, certain, constitutionally illiterate, and purely destructive.
A quick note on another episode:
I enjoyed your discussion on narcissism with Simon Rogoff and got some new insights, thank you. I think it’s been really helpful for me to distinguish the difference between egomaniacs and those struggling with narcissism.
I just love your podcast! I have learned to much about history and politics! Thanks for keeping it diverse and sooo interesting! Subscriber for life!
This next listener has a broad dissent:
Lately on the Dishcast, there has been a series of episodes which — although each one was an interesting discussion — largely amounted to anti-Trump screeds (Sykes, Field, Berlinski, Rogoff), where Trump and his base were often pathologized as stupid, insane, demented, etc. I didn’t vote for the guy (nor Harris), but I completely understand and sympathize with why people support Trump, and having listened to him speak at length many times — including for three hours unedited on Joe Rogan’s podcast — I do not think he’s crazy.
Is he a bully, viking, and mob boss? Yes — none of which qualify as crazy or demented. They’re illiberal, and not what you would want to see as a small-c conservative, but here’s the problem: the system is just not working for ordinary people. They are fed up and want a bull in the china shop to do something, and that’s what Trump is doing. Since resuming office, Trump has:
