Robert P. George is a legal scholar and political philosopher. At Princetown, he’s the McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and the director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions. He’s also a senior fellow at both the American Enterprise Institute and the Witherspoon Institute, which he co-founded. His many books include Making Men Moral and In Defense of Natural Law. We spent many years sparring in print over marriage, gays, and Catholicism.
An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of the episode — on disobeying unjust laws, and the supposed harms of gay marriage — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: his dad’s harrowing service in WWII; Robby growing up in Appalachia with his grandfathers in the coal mines; first in his family to go to college; stories of both of us being at Oxford at the same time; the origins of bluegrass; Robert Byrd’s legacy; Plato’s Gorgias; Aristotle and friendship; Robby’s close friendship with Cornel West; Montaigne; Aquinas; Vatican II; Eastern Orthodox liturgy; neo-scholasticism; Darwin’s survival of the fittest; Nietzsche; loving one’s enemy as uniquely Christian; just law and unjust law; MLK’s letter from a Birmingham jail; Hume; Oakeshott; natural law theorists vs legal positivists; the AIDS crisis; Christian marriage vs civil marriage; divorce; the Manhattan Declaration; Henry VIII’s annulments; the sexual habits of Clinton and Trump; illiberalism on the left and right; and the beached squids of Ptown.
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Ross Barkan on the DSA and Mamdani, John O’Sullivan on conservatism, Azam Ahmed on terrifying new drugs, and Megan McArdle on pretty much anything. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
From a fan of last week’s episode with David Thomson on cinema:
What a wonderful episode! It actually ended too soon. It’s good to have a rest from politics.
From another who “loved the interview”:
I’m a movie person, and it’s hard to find thoughtful writing on the movies, as pervasive as they are in our lives. It’s all celebrity junk and industry insider gossip. Who cares?
David Thomson, though, has built a career deeply thinking about movies and sharing his thoughts. What a singular and independent voice! And with the richness of the two-country perspective. I’m so glad he’s still writing! Thanks for bringing him on.
I had a blast with the book and the man. On the following clip, a listener remarks, “Scary shit”:
On another episode:
I was thinking that you should take inspiration from Russ Roberts and have subscribers vote for their favorite episode of the year. At this point mine would be Tom Junod’s “On Masculinity and His Dad,” which I could not possibly have predicted before the fact. It was so peculiar and gripping, like a dream that you half remember in the moments after you wake.
At any rate, keep up the good work and enjoy the summer!
Cheers! And yes, we will. Here’s a guest rec for the pod:
I am a longtime subscriber, immensely grateful for your work, nourished by it, and always recommending the Dish to people. I just finished listening to the audiobook of Kenan Malik’s 2023 Not So Black and White: A History of Race from White Supremacy to Identity Politics, and I thought it was excellent. Maybe he would make a good guest. You have much in common, but there might also be room for some friction, because I think he is less “conservative” than you are. I’d love to hear you have a conversation with him.
I’m a fan of Malik’s, so this is a great idea. Thanks. Another reader recommends “an eye-opening book I think you’ll love”:
Since, like me, you are a Christian with a, let’s say, conflicted relationship between your faith and your sexuality, check out Lower than the Angels: A History of Sex and Christianity by Diarmaid MacCulloch.
Well, I did actually read his entire History of Christianity, which includes this material. Part of my research for the book I’m not yet writing. He’s an extraordinary scholar, the best I’ve read since John Boswell. Another book plug:
Whataboutism works so well as a defense against seeing things, such as the corruption and grift of Trump. There’s a great book by Dan Goleman called Vital Lies, Simple Truths: The Psychology of Self-Deception. I read it about 20 years ago and remember thinking, “All of us are vulnerable to self-deception” — but I’ve never seen anything like the level of MAGA’s.
From a subscriber who’s sticking with us:
Thanks for your email reminding me of my subscription renewal. Some Substack writers don’t offer us this friendly reminder, and I appreciate the chance to decide whether to go on with you. This year I’m cutting back on all sorts of expenses, at a time when family crises need my attention and money. You do infuriate me, usually on a weekly basis. Yet … I have read you since the New Republic days, I loved the original Dish, and we have grown old together. I lost a beloved brother to AIDS, and your words of that time helped me. And so much more.
So, another year of Dish.
We can’t express sufficient gratitude. Substack seems to be experiencing a subscription swoon of sorts and we are no exception. The economy and exhaustion with the world, along with over-supply, are the main reasons, along with some readers upset by my views on Israel’s wars. So every sub counts.
On last week’s column, which was a four-parter, a reader writes:
That was a great format last week. Can you do more quick takes like that? I like your extended takes, but I also remember fondly the three-different-topic essay format from when you were at New York Magazine; I like hearing you riff on the many different topics.
Heh. Well I was desperate for a subject and gave up. But sometimes a little tapas is better than a main meal. Especially in the summer. On the substance of that column:
Your remembrance of Lindsey Graham last week was an appropriate, short epitaph for a man who never saw a war he didn’t love. That said, his devotion to Israel (especially Netanyahu’s Israel) seems to have been another political calculation from a man who justified his two about-faces on Trump as what kept him “in the game... There’s no way to get around Trump. He’s the most important figure in the Republican Party now — not me, not John McCain, not George W. Bush. Donald Trump. Let’s play the hand we’re dealt.”
I believe Graham’s devotion to Israel stemmed from South Carolina’s demographics: 77% are self-identified Christians and nearly 40% are evangelical. This is the impact of primaries in de-facto one-party states (SC hasn’t elected a statewide Dem in 20 years), when such a large bloc has a simplistic, dogmatic attachment to another country. Evangelicals, by and large, believe that Israel must exist to trigger Jesus’ second coming, therefore Graham had to “stand with Israel” in full-throated bombast. He was a political animal who always coasted along the conservative tides, and his constituents were another audience to butter up in the pursuit of power.
On a different part of the column:
I read Edsall’s piece and, on immigration, I agree — except about the path to citizenship for those who entered illegally (unless they were brought here as minors; they should be offered citizenship). Yes, we need to legalize those here illegally, because it’s both humane and will bring them into the open economy. But they did break the law, and it’s unjust to reward them by letting them jump the line ahead of those who are following the rules to legally immigrate to our country. If it were up to me, we would have a vastly more liberal immigration policy — but there has to be a consequence for immigrating illegally.
Another writes:
Tom Edsall nailed it. My version:
I didn’t vote for Harris or Trump and have no regrets about that decision. Even as the Republican train goes off the rails, driven by an increasingly insane engineer, my former party — the Democratic Party — sinks even deeper. The Dems lost in 2024 and will continue to lose in the future because of one reason: losing the support of the working class.
The historic Democratic icons FDR and JFK would laugh at what passes for policy in their beloved party. Although they were upper class, they understood that victory for their party depended on appealing to working-class voters. Current party leaders disdain the “deplorable” and “racist” members of the working class.
Working-class Americans hate the following policies foisted on them by the Democrats:
