Shadi is a Washington Post columnist and a senior fellow at Georgetown University’s Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. He runs a substack with Damir Marusic called Wisdom of Crowds, and his new book is The Case for American Power. It’s the third time Shadi has been on the Dishcast. We hashed out the National Security Strategy and the future of US leadership in the world, if any.
An auto-transcript is available above (click “Transcript” while logged in Substack). For two clips of our convo — on Bush’s idealism leading to anarchy in Iraq, and whether Trump’s amorality is stabilizing the Middle East — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: Shadi raised with a mixed identity (American/Muslim/Arab); both parents from Egypt where he spent summers; the reinvention of immigrants; the peace and prosperity of the ‘90s; our innocence shattered on 9/11; external and internal jihad; religion in public life; the Koran; blasphemy laws in the UK; Charles Taylor and the loss of enchantment; political cults like MAGA and SJW; Deneen and other post-liberals; Obama’s realism in the Mideast; the Arab Spring; Islam’s tension with liberalism; how Israel undermined Obama; the settlements; Gaza; Muslim views of women and gays in the West; the US intervening in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Persian Gulf; oikophobia; elites opening up China and creating a rival; Taiwan; Russia after the USSR; the invasion of Georgia and Crimea; the Syrian war and refugee crisis; the war in Ukraine; Vance in Munich; and Trump’s pressure on NATO to arm itself.
Truman got a front-row seat:
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols and celebrities (from Diddy to Churchill to Trump), Laura Field on the intellectuals of Trumpism, Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Jason Willick on trade and conservatism. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
I was absolutely rapt by the first 15 minutes of that episode — everything from your voice cracking as you talked about the book, to the horrifying story of George’s dad’s suicide, to his failed stint in the Peace Corps. What a remarkable life story … which feels eerily relevant, as versions of the same forces that altered the course of George’s life have returned to shape our society today.
I hope his next book is his memoir. (I’ll fess up: I’m writing to you to try to plant this idea in his head.) Keep up the wonderful work.
Another on that episode:
Andrew, I have been listening to your podcast for the last three years, almost every word of it. It has been my graduate school in 19th century liberalism — seriously — and I cannot tell you how grateful I am. You have given me a way to think about the world we live in. (Even if I sometimes want to yell at you to be quiet so your guest can talk!)
I just finished listening to the last 30 minutes of your episode with George Packer. I was moved because you were so clearly moved by his book.
Maybe you two could write a platform for the Decency Party — or better yet, find a candidate. Actually, I don’t really believe in party platforms, and the candidate will have to emerge, if there is one.
Just keep the Dish going.
That’s the plan. Another listener writes:
You and George Packer discussed why the old have deferred to the youth on dogma and questions of justice. I’ll offer one thought that occurred to me: a number of these older folks, especially the left-leaning ones, probably imbibed the belief that “the arc of history is long but it bends toward justice.” The famous quote implies that the world is getting better: each generation is more just than the last. If that’s a core premise, than naturally the young (i.e., the future) are the ones further along that arc of justice.
As a conservative, I’ve never liked that quote. I prefer the Scalia quote “Societies can rot.” It’s on us, generation after generation, to fend off the rot.
I’m with you. Whiggishness is a pet peeve of mine. One more on the Packer pod:
His book reminds me of a recent, chilling, Free Press interview by Dominic Green of David Betz — a historian at King’s College London — titled “Has An English Civil War Already Started?” I love England but haven’t been back in a decade. So I certainly hope this is not a likely story, but you might want to check it out.
This next listener touches on a few pods:
The Dishcast is just bloody brilliant! Somehow you manage to find guests who are deep and original thinkers, you allow subjects of the utmost importance to be given time, and you explore these subjects with such intelligent questions, often answering them with your own insights. I was especially struck by Eisenhower — his character and view of the world, the shear quality of the man, and how we need someone like this to lead America again.
George Packer’s allegory needs deep study. It should be in school curriculums.
Both these podcasts are so full of insights, I’ll listen to them several times. This digital and populist age is obscuring truth — and that’s all we should be focused on. The Dishcast is a beacon.
Wow. Thank you. More on Eisenhower:
This afternoon I listened to your pod with Michel Paradis on his biography of Eisenhower, and I enjoyed it very much, as I do many of your guests. However, I believe your full-throated approval of Eisenhower, as president, is a bit over the top — but you can certainly be excused looking at the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. You may wish to read Stephen Ambrose’s biography of Ike. In a nutshell (my nutshell), Eisenhower seemed to be more concerned with balancing the budget rather than balancing the wide disparity between those who have and those who have not.
Mr. Paradis mentions that George Marshall was instrumental in giving the path to greatness to Ike. But when McCarthy attacked Marshall as a communist (oh brother), Ike ran for the nearest exit and didn’t support his mentor until McCarthy was mortally politically wounded. That’s not a profile in courage.
Points taken. But balancing the budget is something a government can actually do, as opposed to ending all inequality. I wish more presidents took that obligation seriously.
Yes, yes, yes — I’m still behind on my Dish reading and listening, but nonetheless I’m compelled to respond. Hao was admirably clear and forthright on all topics, and her up-close observations were welcome confirmations of my thoughts — which I will politely suppress except to state that whenever someone asks me about generative AI, I say it’s a sophisticated party trick —then the back of my mind says it’ll be collapsing soon. It’s an object lesson that capitalism may produce lots of stuff, but optimization is never guaranteed.
But more importantly, it’s good to see readers telling you to take the time to write your memoir. This has clarified my subscription to the Dish. It’s not really a subscription; it’s support for thinking, writing, and editing I respect and enjoy. If you and Chris determine you need to take the time to write a book, hey, great. That’s why I subscribe, so you can think. And if the book produced isn’t of interest to me, too bad. Chances you take.
A reader writes:
When I was a young boy growing up in Massachusetts, I was an avid listener and occasional caller to David Brudnoy’s radio program. I found myself thinking of him recently and miss him quite a bit. I tried to find more about him online, and in an archived episode of Firing Line, he references you:
I’m not, by the way, an advocate for gay marriage — I leave that to my friend Andrew Sullivan — but I do think that if one were not seeing this hysterical reaction against it from people who simultaneously say “those terrible promiscuous homosexuals” and “but how dare they wish to be married and take our precious word and use it for themselves,” it is a Catch-22.
David was very kind to me. One night I called his show and mentioned how isolated and alone I felt in school. (Having grown up a bit, I now realize how universal that feeling is.) I even blabbered about having no friends, and that his radio show was, for me, a safe space — a term that wasn’t in the lexicon yet, but I inferred it. He was patient and nurturing in his response.
He died not too long after that exchange. His colleague Jordan Rich hosted a memorial show for David the following evening, and I even phoned in to express my gratitude and grief.
I’m sure you are very busy, but if a few minutes ever became available to you, I would love to know more about him. I know this is a big ask, but you are possibly my only remaining and attainable connection to David Brudnoy.
I do remember him — most vividly when I went on his radio show which he hosted in his living room late at night: a warm, civilized space, crammed with books and knick-knacks. He created a truly special place for liberal discourse on his show — made more humane by his beautiful soul. And he showed me how a civilized conservative could be gay and real and proud, and I loved him for it. Notice too Bill Buckley’s friendship with him, and the honesty of their discussion above. Buckley was no Bill Kristol.
Next up, a “long-time reader and subscriber, initially drawn to your blog as a fellow repenter on the Iraq War”:
In many of your columns over the past few years, you have gone after the concept of gender-affirming care for minors, but you often couch that criticism by stating that you support the rights of trans adults to live their lives with dignity and free from discrimination. I’ve been worried reading these columns that, while you make that distinction, many critics — perhaps even the vast majority — would not, if they were being honest with themselves. In the Biden years, it was politically expedient for many to say that they opposed gender-affirming care for minors but had no problem with trans adults living their lives.
And now under Trump II, we’re seeing the mask come off. This week, HHS dead-named Admiral Rachel Levine out of pure spite on her official portrait at the Humphrey Building — and worse, when Fox News reported on it, HHS’s Instagram account gleefully reposted it with a “Can confirm!”
The whole thing makes me sick — up to and including the exclamation point. Putting aside that Admiral Levine has spent her life serving this country, she is a human being. Children growing up now see adults tolerating or celebrating that kind of bullying and they will emulate it, and not just against trans kids.
I am really hoping to see you come out and acknowledge that the Trump administration is not just ending gender-affirming care for minors, but promoting the bullying and marginalization of all trans people. And I really hope you’ll use your gifted pen and bipartisan platform to condemn it as strongly as you would viciousness and bigotry against other vulnerable minorities.
You’re right. It’s sickening. I have criticized it harshly, but I probably should do that more. Nancy Mace has been particularly vile, alongside that creep Michael Knowles.
Another pushes back on a Money Quote from last week:
“Nature has just published one of the most insane papers imaginable. In woke studies, ‘feminist queer crip theory’ leads the pack in terms of derangement. … The author calls for ‘queer stoma pride,’ which celebrates ‘the leakiness of bodies which disrupt boundaries,’” - Colin Wright.
This is false. The absurd manuscript in question was published in “Humanities and Social Sciences Communications” — a low-impact, low-prestige, open-access journal. Wright was confused because this journal is published by Springer Nature, which also publishes Nature (high-impact, high-prestige, ultra-competitive).
But Springer Nature publishes about 3,000 journals. The fact that some vestigial woke nonsense was published in one of their lower tier journals is a “dog bites man” story. The explosion of what are effectively pay-to-publish, open-access, online journals is interesting and perhaps scandalous in its own right, but this story doesn’t mean what Wright (and your readers, minus correction) thinks it means.
Agreed. Wright corrected the record. We’re very happy to do so as well. Another reader writes:
Your column on Trump’s lack of character and decency was sublime. I sent it to my brother, who in turn sent it to his sister-in-law who believes in Trumpism like a religion! She is a bright, civil, and warm person but has unwavering faith in Trumpism. Maybe his followers — except, of course, the Evangelicals who have their singular agenda — find spiritual satisfaction in their belief in Trumpism?
I first addressed the Trump cult back in 2018, in a piece called “America’s New Religions” — which also tackled the woke cult.
From a returning subscriber:
I’m long-time reader and off-and-on subscriber here. (Andrew, hopefully you understand that sometimes I can’t read your anxiety and manage my own.) The last time I paused my subscription, I wondered what would make me reactivate it.
Yesterday morning, when I opened the VFYW write-up and saw photo #487, I found out! I glanced at it and thought, “Huh, that looks an awful lot like downtown!” Zooming in confirmed that the photo really was taken three blocks away from my house, here in my adopted hometown of Hamilton! Of all the college towns I’ve lived in, it’s the smallest — and the one I’d have guessed to be the least likely to show up in VFYW!
So congratulations, you got me to resubscribe!
That’s all Chris’s doing. But we’re psyched to have you back. See you next Friday.
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