Transcript: James Alison On Christianity

The Catholic theologian dives into the deep questions of the human experience.

James is a Roman Catholic priest, theologian and writer. His life’s work has been the application of the thought of René Girard — the French theoretician of desire and violence — to the understanding of basic Christianity. He has also stood up for truthfulness about gays and lesbians in the life of the Church; and has been a good friend for many years. Among his many books are The Joy of Being Wrong, Faith Beyond Resentment: Fragments Catholic and Gay, and Jesus the Forgiving Victim — an introduction to the Christian faith.

This episode originally aired on March 17, 2023. Some money quotes from James:

• “Creation is being brought into being, and you are on the inside of it as well … And the whole point of that is so that you and other people should enjoy it more.”

• “One must neither be a victim nor a survivor, but a creator … It’s not only, ‘don't let the bastards get to you’; it’s ‘don’t allow yourself to be run by the evil.’”

• “People have started treating Jesus as having an idea about forgiving sin rather than actually occupying the place of shame so that we can learn not to be frightened of our places of shame.”

• “My realization was that the Catholics didn’t seem to have such a negative view of creation … maybe one day I would discover that being gay was something natural, and not an abomination.”

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Andrew: Hey there, welcome to the Dishcast. This week, thank God, I am feeling fine. No more sicknesses.

My guest this week, whom I've known for a while, I have found to be an extraordinary exemplar of what it is to grapple with and to attempt to live by the life and work of Jesus of Nazareth — I say that in a rather pious tone. But mean that as simply as possible, because James Allison, who is a Roman Catholic Priest, has helped me better understand the centrality of that simple message of Christianity. And that's why I wanted to bring him on today, to talk about what Christianity is, what it's been for him, how he's struggled, and how he has endured.

He's a Catholic theologian, priest, and writer. His life's work has been the application of the thought of the French theoretician of desire and violence, René Girard, to the understanding of basic Christianity. Fueled by this, he's attempted to stand up for truthfulness concerning matters gay and lesbian in the life of the church.

He's the author of many books, including The Joy of Being Wrong, something that certainly, definitely resonates with me, Faith Beyond Resentment, another book that just really did strike something deep within me, and the introduction to the Christian Faith for Adults, which he calls Jesus the Forgiving Victim.

James, thanks so much for joining me. You're in Madrid, right now?

James: I'm in Madrid. And thank you for having me. It's a very great honor to appear here. It's always lovely to see you, but actually to be a guest on your podcast is very special. Very special.

Andrew: Tell me where you grew up and who your parents were.

James: Okay. It's a world familiar to you. I grew up in and around London. My parents were very conservative evangelical Christians. My father was a conservative member of Parliament. I think he entered Parliament when I was four. Previously, he worked for a conservative central office.

I grew up in a political and religious family. That involved a kindergarten school in London, what boy Brits called prep school, meaning a private school for young'uns between eight and 12 in a place called Hawkhurst in Kent. Where one of the amusing facts was that there was a Russian embassy hide out about three blocks from the school. The rule at the time was that no Russian diplomat could live further than 47 miles from London. That was supposed to be able to be controlled by the government. And our village was exactly 47 miles from London, so it was the very furthest place they could go. [laughs]

Andrew: So the Russians could actually get there and not be tracked.

James: Well, they could be tracked, but they weren't disobeying rules of hospitality of the host country if they were there. So it was quite interesting.

Andrew: And then you went to Eton, right? You were a classic product of a conservative home and of the classic Etonian High School, or prep school, or public school as we called them.

James: My father was an Old Etonian, my two uncles, even my grandfather was an Old Etonian. I think my poor mother, the only men she ever knew in her life were all Etonians.

Andrew: So very much part of the British elite, in a way. And your father actually became a minister in one of Margaret Thatcher's governments?

James: He was a minister in both of the first two Reichs. No, actually no, the first Reich, yes, he was a minister first for Northern Ireland and then in employment. Then in the second Reich, he was her parliamentary private secretary.

Andrew: When you say Reich, what do you mean?

James: Well, as in the Third Reich. You know, she had three reichs, didn't she?

Andrew: Oh, Jesus Lord! [laughs] You mean her second government?

James: Her second government, yes.

Andrew: She was democratically elected, James!

James: Oh, yes, I know.

Andrew: This is high irony, is that what you're doing?

James: Yes.

Andrew: Yes. Were you not at that time, as a kid, a supporter of Thatcher or a supporter of your father?

James: Oh yes, of course! I was passionate.

Andrew: And were you brought up an evangelical Christian?

James: I was brought up within that, but I was never able to stomach it.

Andrew: Why, what was it?

James: I think probably, to be honest, my mother was hyper religious, in the sense that it was borderline mental illness. She saw witches and demons everywhere. In other words, the mixture of conservatism and religion in which I was brought up was a series of conspiracy theories, to be frank.

Andrew: Tell me more about that.