Transcript: Katie Herzog & Jamie Kirchick On Pride And The Alphabet People

The kind of conversation that happens all the time among the gays but you rarely hear in public.

Katie Herzog, one of the last remaining lesbians in America, is the co-host of Blocked and Reported alongside her battered pod-wife, Jesse Singal. Gay neocon Jamie Kirchick is a Brookings fellow and the author of the book Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington. If you’d like to hear a politically incorrect gay and lesbian conversation that would never be aired in the MSM, check it out.

The original episode aired on July 2, 2021 and you can listen to it here. Some money quotes:

• Jamie: “There’s probably no group of people who have witnessed a better, more dramatic transformation in their role, in their place in American society, than gay and lesbian Americans.”

• Jamie: “One of the great achievements of the gay rights movement has been to say there’s no one way to be a man and there’s no one way to be a woman.”

• Katie: “There were very few gay people in my town … This is probably part of the reason that it took me a long time to realize that I was gay because representation actually does matter.”

• Katie: “Maybe this is why I would never be a good activist, but I think the truth always matters. We shouldn’t perpetuate lies because they further political agenda.”

• Jamie: “Just think of all the invective and the calumny that have been directed at gay people for centuries … We should be the last group of people who should resort to these sorts of deceptive [woke] tactics.”

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Andrew: Hi there, and welcome to another Dishcast. I've been looking forward to this one. You know I'm a bit of a bore about the LGBTQIA2S+ community, and I thought I would get two leading members of the LBTQIA2S+ community to join me, who are two of the most interesting ... well, one of the most lively and interesting gay men writing in public, and one of the most fabulous and funny and brilliant lesbians out there. And there are a fewer of those every day.

With me today is Jamie Kirchick, whom I've known forever. A sort of neocon gay person. I'm now being terribly rude about you, but he's actually a wonderful historian and great writer. The other is Katie Herzog, a wonderful lesbian who I knew virtually for a while, and I met, I think, two years ago now. Something like two years ago, year and a half. With Covid everything becomes really weird timing.

Katie Herzog, who now hosts the Blocked and Reported podcast with her battered wife, Jesse Singal. Are we even allowed to use that term anymore? You know what I mean. It's a Punch and Judy show really, and she does all the punching. It's fabulous. It's one of the most successful podcasts out there, right? So please listen to her podcast. If nothing else, you will laugh. It's funny.

Jamie, tell me what your next book is.

Jamie: It's called Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington. It'll be coming out in February, and it is a narrative history, a sweeping narrative history of what I call the specter of homosexuality over American national politics from about the New Deal, World War II until the 1990s when Bill Clinton lifted the ban on gay people receiving security clearances. So it's basically about the interplay between secrecy and homosexuality and secrecy and power in Washington for basically the duration of the Cold War era.

Andrew: Great. One of the things I do recommend for that is the PBS show, “The Lavender Scare,” which is, I'm told, playing this week on PBS stations, which might be worth a look at. It particularly frames Frank Kameny, a trans woman of color, as the critical person in the movement. [Jamie laughs] Anyway, just let that one fly by.

I'd like you both to tell us a little bit where you're from. We do this every time. Tell us where you grew up, and what most influenced you, and, obviously, in both of your cases in this particular instance, when you figured out you were gay or lesbian, and how the world was then reflected back on you. Jamie, let's start with you.