Sam Harris On The Trump Threat, Harris, Wokeness

Sam is a neuroscientist, philosopher, bestselling author, host of the Making Sense podcast, and creator of the Waking Up App. He’s also an old friend, jousting partner, meditation role model, and all round wonderful man. His recent work helped me reassess my views on the Gaza war. This week we had our third consecutive talk on the eve of the election — the first on his pod in 2016, the second on the Dishcast in 2020.

For three clips of our convo — on Trump’s insane deportation plan, the depth of his cult, and what Harris should do in the final stretch — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: what Harris has done well in this campaign; her downplaying of identity politics; her deft debate with Trump and great convention speech; her stylistic — if not substantive — shift toward the center; her lack of Sister Souljah moments; her role as an establishment figure; the lack of a real primary; debating whether she’s a woke Manchurian candidate; the “nepo baby” running her campaign; understanding Trump’s enduring appeal; his zero-sum worldview; calling the neocons’ bluff; the Iraq War; the withdrawal from Afghanistan; Harris campaigning with the Cheneys; Trump’s tariffs; his humor; the lawfare against him; the overblown Russiagate; not seizing dictatorial power during Covid or the 2020 riots; the vast majority of his own Cabinet now opposing him; his denigration of the military; his relationship with Israel; Hamas; Ukraine; Taiwan; the border crisis; sex changes for minors; trans prisoners; Harris’ pitch to black men; “Project Fear” during Brexit; January 6th; Bob Woodward’s reporting; Project 2025; Vance; the growing gender gap in politics; the growing support of non-whites for Trump; his felonies; the McDonald’s stunt; Harris’ extreme caution with media; the Al Smith dinner; X’s appalling algorithm of racial violence; the sinister Musk; the woke onslaught; Rahm Emanuel; and the risk of violence after Election Day.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: the return of the great John Gray, Damon Linker on the election results, Anderson Cooper on grief, Christine Rosen on humanness in a digital world, and Mary Matalin on anything but politics. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

From a fan of last week’s pod:

I just finished listening to your talk with Tina Brown and was enchanted. Not to gush, but I honestly love both of you. I felt like I was hearing two smart, psychologically heathy people having a real conversation about this election.

Aww shucks. Another listener:

I enjoyed your talk with Tina Brown and learned much about a person I knew so little about, other than her credentials. I was worried for a moment that when you asked her what her compatriots understand about people who are voting for Trump, worried that she and you might be slipping down the slope that you always point out about the “libs” — that they put everyone on the right in one pot. And while you both did differentiate the Trump voters somewhat, I think it deserves a more in-depth look. 

My view is that there are those affected by the globalization and the loss of industrial jobs (though as one of your readers from Montana reported, his relative — an anesthesiologist and not similarly affected — is nevertheless voting for Trump). Let’s not forget the many rich people who are dropping millions of dollars to support Trump’s campaign (or pay for his legal bills). And then there are some who are racist (let us not forget Charlottesville), and those whose evangelical ministers have suggested that he is either the Second Coming or a reincarnation of Cyrus.

So, all I’m saying is that there seems to be a very mixed bag of supporters, and no simple answer to the question. I’m sure the topic will come up when you talk to Sam Harris and I look forward to his perspective.

Another turns to the UK portion of the pod:

There’s no question that PM’s Question Time is a tremendous institution that keeps politicians in check. And it has led to some memorable exchanges, which display a level of erudition well in excess of what one sees in the US Congress. The exchanges between Denis Healey and Sir Geoffrey Howe spring to mind as immediate classics. Can you imagine any American politician being as clever as Healey when he compared debating Geoffrey as “like being savaged by a dead sheep”?

Another gets personal:

I was just listening to your extremely entertaining conversation with Tina Brown. I actually have a recommendation for her — or, more accurately, for her son Georgie. It was moving hearing her talk about the loneliness that autistic adults feel because they don’t have a workplace or friends. I may have a lead for her, if Georgie is interested.

I work for a company that puts veterans to work in manufacturing. That industry is facing a huge workforce shortage — three million jobs within a decade. So as you can imagine, a large amount of money is being put into creative solutions to solve this problem. One growing area is investment in overlooked talent pools such as the neurodiverse. It turns out manufacturing — with its clear, repetitive tasks — turns out to be an excellent fit for many neurodiverse adults. Plant managers are surprisingly supportive, not least because neurodiverse workers are brutally honest and bring unique perspectives to their jobs more than other workers. They also tend to love their jobs.

There is now a national coalition to support them. Here is their website.

I hope Tina’s son can find his community. Thanks for a great pod as always. You two are helping me survive the worst election of my lifetime!

Here’s another tip for Tina and other parents of adult children with special needs:

An enjoyable Dishcast, as always. I have a quick lead that you might think worth sharing with your friend Tina. At 45:50-47:10, she mentioned seeking a new model of assisted living for young adults with needs. The town of Darien, CT has created just such a model and it might be a good resource for her.

Here’s a listener on our episode from two weeks ago:

The Walter Kirn show was excellent. Ok, I already subscribe to Racket News and County Highway, but the key to your episode was the good chemistry between you two. You understood each other and were friendly but not fawning.

I’m sure your Harris-Walz fans are terribly offended by Walter’s take on Walz, but it strikes me as dead accurate: putting on a ridiculous performance as a rural Midwesterner.

Also, did you see the White Man Tacos discussion with Kamala? The pheasant hunting? The commercial where he’s working on a car engine? Oh please!

Another on Kirn:

He had one of the best explanations of the Trump phenomenon that I have heard. I don’t agree with all of his points, but I could see where he was coming from, especially when he was talking about people losing their jobs at good American companies and not wanting to retrain, leave an aging relative, or abandon their beloved fishing holes.

At the same time, it’s hard for me not to feel like similar and much worse fates have befallen countless individuals throughout history who’ve had to adapt, move, or suffer due to circumstances beyond their control. And would it not have taken some major government intervention of an anti-free-market kind to preserve the communities Kirn describes? This is something conservatives have traditionally opposed. So it feels a little like the pot calling the kettle black. The unsympathetic side of me sees a lot of angling for sympathy from the “F your feelings” crowd, so I ask, “Why should your particular community/culture be immune from a changing world?”

Which was, in part, the message of Vance’s Hillbilly Elegy. A long-time listener writes about the whole Dishcast venture:

I am probably an aberrant listener who first came across you many years ago, watching YouTube debates with Christopher Hitchens, then through the Sam Harris podcast. I was totally unfamiliar with your extraordinary career as a journalist and activist in the ‘90s. I wanted to write and thank you and your team (a team of you and one other?) and merely say, I don’t think a podcast has moved me quite so much and cause me to well up so many times. 

First, listening to your conversation with Michael Lewis talking about the loss of his daughter Dixie (I literally had to pull over as I was sobbing so much). Second, listening to your conversation with David Frum about the passing of his daughter, and you talking intimately about the pain and loss in the passing of your mother. And today, I was doing some work at my computer with your conversation with Tina Brown on in the background, and the parts about her son, your families, and your grandmother were deeply moving.

The Dishcast is an intimate conversation with some big beasts of journalism and culture. It’s both outrageously funny and sad, and it’s strange to hear such intimacy and humour that your guests lay bare. It’s also a great education on the plight of America for ill-informed listeners like myself, but also a wonderful look back through events in our own increasingly parochial island back here in Great Britain. 

Overall I think you’re an optimist, and I come away feeling thoroughly restored and refreshed after hearing that clever people like your guests are out there doing their thing. I just wanted to write and say thank you from a weird corner of Willesden Junction / Harlesden in West London. 

I’m chuffed beyond measure. Thank you. Another is looking forward to next week’s pod:

I’m stoked to hear you‘re giving Professor Gray more Dish light. His thinking is a soothing and indispensable antidote to the over-reasonableness that our spirits keep paying the price for. 

Here’s a guest rec:

It may be too late for the election, but I would relish a conversation between you and Martin Gurri about the current state of party politics. He is voting for Trump, but his opinion is a kind of mirror image of your own, as I understand it. He is voting for Trump, but only because he feels the elite class has gone too far in its efforts to control public discourse, and this represents the greater risk to our body politic than the Republican Party’s chaos. It’s a fascinating argument, and I would love to hear how the two of you resolve the nuances between your positions!

I’m not indifferent to the critique. I just can’t enable a malignant, delusional maniac to run the free world.

A frequent dissenter recommends a guest that Sam Harris just had on his pod:

I try not to bog down your inbox unless I am writing a snarky response that might make it to press the following week, but here I am with a normal reader email. I don’t listen to many podcasts that are “interview with a guy who has opinions about stuff,” but this one is well worth your time: “Yuval Noah Harari on AI & the Future of Information,” on Kara Swisher’s podcast:

I’ve never heard of either of these people, but a DC wonk forwarded it to me in the context of a conversation about misinformation, and it’s quite good. It gets into the topic of how the printing press facilitated the spread of misinformation, the subsequent witch trials and religious wars, and considers how social media and generative AI is similar to that. And, unlike most “whine about shit” podcasts, there are actually some ideas of how to improve things. It’s very refreshing.

However, I want to make clear I don’t agree with everything on the pod and I could easily clap back at some of the hand-wavey, dot-commy, capitalist, futurist, tech-bro nonsense that’s in there. But just from the point of view of taking on misinformation, it says stuff I wish I had come up with as pithy reader responses to recent Dish obsessions. I am so tired of the modern-day witch hunts that are targeted directly at me: a trans person and a migrant.

Hope all is well. I am still sitting here in Taiwan encircled by Chinese gunboats and just living my life like everyone else. It’s a very relaxing country where nobody really gives much of a crap about culture-war topics. I should get my permanent residence in a year or two, so I’m looking forward to taking a break from work and sitting under a banana tree for a couple months.

I’ve tried to get Harari on the Dishcast long before this new book. His people turned us down. Maybe this might get his attention.

Next up, a reader has a “dissent over the ‘transing children’ issue, but not because I disagree with anything you’re saying about it”:

I’m assuming you’ve checked your facts. So, I stipulate to all your points about Rachel Levine, WPATH, the shocking deceptions and violations of the Hippocratic Oath, etc. Yes, there should be lawsuits, and some people should lose their jobs or licenses. I agree that the shock is greater when the victims are children, and when government officials are guilty of not protecting them. I, too, strongly object to children being harmed.

What I don’t get is your crashing indifference to the bigger picture. Is this really about children’s health and safety?